Part of me wants to give the congregation of Grow to Go Christian Center the benefit of the doubt on this issue and place Devil’s advocate on the matter…. heh heh ..devil’s advocate on a story about a congregation… teee heee…fun-nee. But then the other half of me wants to give myself the absolute side eye for even trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt when i’d be better off doubting their benefits.
For those who haven’t see this, take a look….
I have to ask though… considering most of us spend $25/month on purely frivolous, ridiculous and or things not at all that important, why is it so awful that this congregation wants to organize their efforts to thank someone whom they believe provides them a deeply valuable service? I’m not saying.. I’m just saying. If you can spend $60/month on a video game. $30/month on McDonald’s, $15/week on coffee, why is it to ridiculous for these people to want to spend $25 a month in order to give a gift to their ‘spiritual leader’.
What if this man actually does a lot for his congregation and the community??
You spend $30 a month on cigarettes but it’s foolish for these people to spend the money towards thanking someone they feel has done much for them and or their community?
I’m just saying…..
Man.. I…I just feel dirty even trying to defend this ish… but.. i’m looking at the other side and trying to put it in perspective.
The other side of me is pointing fingers at these folks and shaking my head as I think that this is just another damn problem with blacks and their churches. It causes me to want to get snotty and ask if these same people spending $25/month couldn’t be putting that in a high-yield savings account with ING or some other financial institution for their family or their own end of the year fund. Reading about how they want to give some ‘man of God’ a $70,000 birthday gift just grates my nerves and I can’t help but wonder if that money couldn’t be better spent on ANYTHING other than giving this Pastor the money.
But I have to ask myself: am I saying that with facts and examples, or angry emotions due to my annoyance on how far too many Black folks ‘leave it up to God’ instead taking responsibility for their own accomplishments and failures. Is it my annoyance with organized religion that is clouding my mind? Because clearly my objective frame of mind is putting forth reasonable questions as to why anyone feels they should be upset about this.. myself included.
Sometimes we have to ask ourselves if we are mad as hell at the right thing. I can admit full well that as soon as the topic of Blacks and Churches comes up, I immediately go on the offensive. Immediately. I can admit it 100% that I have a quick fuse on the topic. I know i’m not the only one either. But are we hypocrites when we do that?? I’ll be honest here. I can easily think of $25/month that I spend on things that literally and without question serve no real benefit to my life other than they are a vice. There is nothing beneficial about Wendy’s Burger other than they taste awwwwwwesome..but are terrible for me. Tequila serves NO real purpose other than I love the taste of my Don Julio tequila and I revel in it’s flavour whilst it rots away at my liver. I can clearly lay out at least $25/month spent on somethings of no value or real benefit and I’m pretty sure 90% of you can also.
So… if that is the case… why does this anger us so still? Because even in the face of facts and examples…. this whole things gets a massive side-eye from me…. but do I have that right? Any of us?
if this whole thing also disgusts you, clear your head for 30 seconds… breathe… then come back and discuss….
I just really think this is tacky. I feel that if you received "the calling" then you aren't supposed to expect anything in return.
Now assuming he had nothing to do with this and found out about it he should turn it down. I mean why even give him the money just go buy the Jag for him and present that to him on his birthday…
If my church would have given my pastor a 70,000 "love gift"
he probably would have cussed us out and said how stupid it was. and THEN given the money to a charity.
Everyone who contributed to this are IDIOTS. Its folks in that church i GUARANTEE are facing starvation, no electricity, about to lose their house car or job…
But you wanna "bless the man of god" while YOUR lights finna get cut off?
PRIORITIES are SCREWED, and IDENTITY CRISIS is at hand.
These people idolize the pastor, and that is NEVER EVER what Christianity is about.
and watch them DEFEND this bull**** behavior, when it gets media attention.
**** LIKE THIS, is why people turn away from christianity.
**** LIKE THIS, is why people feel the need to make up stuff not in the bible and make decisions that deter them from having a closer walk with Christ.
SHIT LIKE THIS, is why people spew that "i hate organized religion" garbage (which actually means I hate christianity cause its almost ALWAYS christianity thats the reason they are mad)
I am INFURIATED right now…
I've seen where people actually get mad at folks for not tithing their 10% because they needed to pay a bill. As much as I love the Lord I'm pretty sure that telling DTE that I gave their money to the church or that God will bless me is not going to keep my lights and gas on.
I hate that they tell you how much you HAVE to give and not what you can.
I've visited a church that required their members to submit a yearly tax return to ensure they were tithing the minimum amount.
*side-eye*
that sounds like some creflo dollar type ish.
me TITHING has nothing to do with my SALVATION.
no CHURCH can send or keep me from heaven or hell.
That's why I just can't get down with 'prosperity theology'. Some people only give expecting to get the money back tenfold like a high-interest saving account because the pastor blessed them.
That doesn't seem humbling to me.
Can't I give you a chicken? A pie?
A new roof?
Pressure wash the parking lot in exchange for my eternal milk and honey?
That's some BULL!!
That's fairly common.
STUPID and WRONG, but common.
It was rumored, years ago, that Creflo Dollar did this at his church. I don't know because I never visited nor asked people I know who attend his church. This whole thing just makes my stomach turn.
I would not be surprised if he did this, not one bit.
omega baptist church in Dayton Ohio…
they do that ish…
HUGE black church too…I mean you dang near have to give up a limb and a pint of blood to become a member
Yep I've heard of churches doing that. I remember visiting a church and folks getting mad because I refused to put my name on the offering envelope.
If The members of the church can AFFORD to give to the Righteous Rev. Ray-Rays' 'Hookers, Cocaine and Cadillac''Fund,Then.000001/2 fvck is given from ''ME''.
'Hookers, Cocaine and Cadillac''Fund
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And this is why I hate you! LOL
What kills me is, the Cash Only, bullcrap…Like, I can't get him something that I CHOOSE to…Man, get on with this….This Negro better have a damn, Coke and a smile, and sit down some damn where….I don't ever remember anywhere in the Bible that Jesus' crew went around asking for "love offerings" cause it was their homeboy's birthday….HAVE A SEAT! I am not buying you a new suit from the, Steve Harvey collection, new Nah-n-Latta gators or a new rims for your Cadi….I bet he doesn't even know all his members by their names, yet he has his hand out…Quit begging, makes people hate you!
"Nah-n-Latta gators"
I didn't smile until I pictured two-toned Stacy Adam's with watermelon red and green apple… then I had to laugh.
You know these Negroes love to be, God's peacocks…..
I don't know if I want to recieve the word from a Preacher Rockin' these Clevis the sock man specials<img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/2afdhy.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
You know what? I need for you to exit stage left! LOL
<img src='http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/in/grand/07393422-in.gif' alt='in thread in this in thread in this'>
I need a mariachi band to go with those shoes…
And then i see this…sniggling hard..ohhhh..
Okay… if that man has been pastoring for a few decades and never got a salary, and there are hundreds/thousands of people in the church and more than 10 "working" ministries, and their bills are up to date and they aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul to keep the doors open, and this is a one time gift… then maybe I can see it. But all terms must be met to get the maybe.
Otherwise…
This is another example of Church Club. The first rule of Church Club is that there are no rules. You just copy what you did in your non-church club because you are too lazy to read the Bible and find out what you're supposed to do. $25 "every" month?!?! I can feed 2 Black kids in Swaziland for that… or help out one of those trailer park families down the street from my church. If the church can put a pricetag on their love that honors a man of God that has nothing to do with serving the children of God, they obviously know nothing about Jesus.
If I were a part of that church, I'd pass on giving gifts to this dude, especially since discovering he lives in a snooty upscale part of St. Louis. I'm always suspicious of a pastor that does THAT well.
While I easily spend more then $25/month on frivilous $hit I still balked at that request to give the pastor $70K and consider those who would donate to that mess mindless sheep. This man probably earns a decent salary from the church already and to ask a congregation (which is probably a majority of single women) to donate money in these uncertain economic times is beyond anything I have words for. THat's all I can say at the moment without going in on religion and Christianity…so I'll just leave it at that.
<img src="http://www.spankthellama.com/hashbrowns/main.php/d/2802-1/fat+girl+drinking+from+cup+gif.gif" />
I wonder how many hungry &/or homeless people that $70,000 dollars could've fed, or how many kids it could've put through college.
I'm sorry, but you just know she is drinking "red" kool-aid.
*removes lurk hoodie*
It bothers me because I have been an active participating member of a church many times and have seen the inner workings of a few. From small to large they have been the same. I can't say that my findings are universal or that there aren't any institutions out there doing it the proper way and with proper intent BUT…from what EYE have seen this is pure bs. The pastor is idolized and looked at as the gateway to Christ in some instances. Its as if the flock is taught to do unto the pastor as you would have done if Jesus himself were standing before you any given sunday/wednesday. We were taught that not tithing was stealing from God. How tithing and offering are different and separate and you are required to do both. That you give to God before you give to uncle sam and so you gotta tap into those gross earnings at the percentage that the church has established and if you cannot do so anyway and pray for blessings to pay your bills while we at the good church teach you how to do so. YOUR good suffering and patience and faith in God is what will see you through while you give to the church and pastor. If my faith and persistence in giving has to see me through…what good rev are you doing? Have you graduated and so you don't have to do this anymore? The feeling I get reading this and remembering what it felt like to be a new Christian trying to learn the ways of the church to get closer to God is what pissed me off and made me laugh. I shouldn't laugh at the people going for this because I was once one a long time ago. It also made me laugh because I know what I was taught as a new christian about combating those people who question why you give to the church. There was an actual three day seminar on tithing/offering and how NON believers will try to talk you out of it. I see the church for what it was in my life. Full of pimp like pastors who on more than one occasion called upon sista Jaila for hook ups from my place of employment, deacons calling upon then single mother sista Jaila to receive counsel and comforting in their office where questions about whether my sugar walls needing painting or if I'd had a mammogram an did I know the church elders gave those for free. I'm not in it at all for Rev Dude getting his 70k for his birthday. He can keep giving sistas tips on his FB page on how to care for their men too. I couldn't find any tips for the men to care for their wives. I've rambled enough…
**puts hoodie back on**
…and this says it all for me.
"…and comforting in their office where questions about whether my sugar walls needing painting…"
Wow….you found such a poetic way of describing something really f___ed up.
Hi
I have a few questions….
What happens if the "goal" isn't reached?
Do they still have to tithe?
What if the pastor is "called to glory"?
These are good questions.
And if it's all cash, how will it be tracked? Who's to say who gave what?
And those are really good questions too!!!
some of the families going to church are making less then 30,000a year, and on top on giving money for "church purpose" they should always fill the pastor's pocket for his BIRTHDAY with more money they have in the bank??? I could understand if the money was being raise for hospital bills or something that serious….but a birthday?
*side eyes* then they wonder why I don't have a good relationship with anything that has to do with church.
You know, since it's cash and it's not tax deductible for the church members who give, the pastor won't have to claim it on his taxes because it's a "gift". Uncle Sam no likey!
$700 – yes, give it to him for his birthday.
$7,000, eh… if everything is up to date… sure.
$70,000… no. Not at all. Ever.
I'm PREEEETTTYYY sure there are plenty of non-profits that can benefit from that money.
That money can buy a foreclosed home AND fix it up for a homeless family. Why don't they do that in his name or something… such a better use of the money.
Do I agree with this? Nope…but it's not my hard-earned dollars going in those tacky green envelopes, so carry on.
A church here in Milwaukee did something like that for the pastors wife. There was a $100 minimum "donation" to attend her party. But then again this is the same church with a neon sign that says "sinners welcome here" and an atm in the lobby.
I just puked in my mouth.
What. The. FYCK?!?!?!
Sounds like Jesus needs to come down and start whipping folks again. Or do these so-called Keepers of the Flock skip over when He went H.A.M. on the merchants in the temple?
Word!
as i said on facebook, i don't mind giving a monetary gift. but if you want me to pay in installments, here's a gift card and keep it moving.
I think this is sum bull. People need to wake up and stop idealizing these pastors. I prefer to donate to a woman's shelter or someplace I know that my money will be put to good use. I received a letter from a church I once went to stating I had to submit my tax return to stay an active member. Yeah…..i'm a happy inactive member.
'Tax Returns'..wow, they want every penny they can guilt out of you, huh. >_<
People so worried about making it to Heaven, they forget to live on Earth.
And the choir said, "AMEN!"
not one more thing needs to be said.
It's one thing to give to help the church (rent/building fund, etc.), but another to give money so that the pastor can buy a new car or have a nest egg!
Damn that!
They couldn't sell dinners, have a fish fry or Barbecue to raise money? I understand they want to
show love for their pastor, but this is just beyond ridiculous. It makes me wonder are they trying
to show appreciation or buy their way into heaven.
I don't mind that they want to bless the Pastor with a love gift for his birthday. I think that $70K is a lot … no, too much.
Why not just say we want to give him a birthday gift & let the congregation give what they can? I can't speak on if this man takes a salary or what he's done for this congregation…or their general financial health – but the amount gives more than just pause
now see if they said give what you can, i really wouldn't have a problem with it if they were that set on a monetary gift.
I agree with this whole post. Showing some love & appreciation on his birthday is fine if it's 1) done without pressure to do so & 2) within one's means (which is perhaps implied in the "give what you can" part? idk).
I'm not one of those who feels like a preacher should just barely be making it, but tacky/inappropriate things like this and demanding tax returns to ensure proper tithing does nothing for the image of the con artist using the pulpit for their big heist.
$70k on a 70 year old man? That's a lot of Depends and dentures.
People are stupid
Where can you get a month's worth of cigarettes for $30? If I could've done that, I probably wouldn't have quit smoking.
I tell you right now; if we tried to do this for our pastor, I believe he would revert to his Boogie Down Bronx roots and ask if we had lost our minds. He would then tell them to take the money and go out and do some real good in the community. He lives in the same neighborhood the congregation does, it's common to run into him or the first lady at Walmart and he is so not interested in becoming a mega church. He has stated time and time again, don't get wrapped up in the person repping God and confusing him with God.
So Dec 11th is when I rob the church!
Secondly as token Jew here, I would like to point out that Rabbis are paid, often very well for their services. Rabbi's easily charge a few hundred bucks for a wedding, bris (circumcision party), funeral, etc. "The empirical data shows that they get paid an average of $76,875/year. That's based on Foreign Labor Certification records from 2007-2010, and it assumes that the rabbi is actually working as a rabbi. Rabbis work in lots of other positions too, such as Hebrew Teacher, Math Instructor, Civil Engineer, etc."
Now we wouldn't give a large cash gift like this, but we believe rabbis are preforming a service and should be paid for their time and expertise. You pay $75/hour for a plumber. Rabbi's receive gifts as well, but cash that's just tacky.
This article puts Rabbi's average salary at $ 146k http://forward.com/articles/131325/on-the-pulpit-…
I keep reading it as rabbits.
And now I have an image of a rabbit dressed as a rabbi stuck in my head. *facepalm* Thank you, WanderBoi!
Ah googled "rabbit rabbi" viola
<img border="0" src="http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2010/5/26/129194080947444746.jpg" alt="Pulpit rock" width="404" height="328">
If you want to give, give. If you don't, don't. If you ain't got it, don't. If you don't want to give, lie; then don't.
Part I:
Disclaimer: While I do not attend church I do have a Master of Divinity degree. I did that in order to have the tools to fight the power. I was called, but not to the pulpit but to slay dragons and fight the power that disenfranchises people of their dignity and humanity.
NB: many terms I use in the widest sense of the word. For example, I will use clergy to mean religious officials and church to include temple and mosque. I know there are different terms for these institutions but this is not a thesis, simply a post.
When I first read this article, I cringed as I tend to do when reading about certain religious officials getting large lump sums of money or the hookup (the Pope chilling in the Vatican, the Dalai Lama riding first class on jets, Creflo Dollar with his spread in Ebony showing his expensive house and his wife’s designer handbags/shoes, Joyce Meyers with the big house the congregation bought for her before she moved, etc.). Sure, I wanted to add TD Jakes to the list but in reality, I consider Jakes to be a business man first and a preacher second despite the fact he can preach his behind off.
That is just my opinion so please save the boos and hisses.
Part II:
Due to the abundance of shady clergy in both antiquity (the Pharisees, Sadducees, various Popes, national leaders, and those who have fallen short) many simply do not trust clergy. On the list of most evil individuals, it is not surprising therefore to find those who have attended seminary, those who have titles such as Pope, and those who maim, kill, destroy in the name of the Lord (and in the name of money). Churches have been responsible for more than their fair share of shady things including the selling of indulgences, removing children from their parents only to parcel them out to various white families the effort to ‘civilize’ them [for example: Lost Generation of Aborigine Children in Australia (http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA19970618005) and the Lost Generation of First Nations children in Canada http://www.akha.org/content/missiondocuments/thelostgeneration.pdf)].
Considering that religion has been responsible for the death of more individuals than “any other institutional force in human history” it is not surprising that individuals feel this way (Kimball, When Religion becomes Evil, 2001, p 1).
Part III:
Additionally, when you see so many churches blinging out with jets, their own sound studios and with ATMs in their lobbies, this sort of thing can be off-putting. Thus, it is not surprising that many individuals give the side eye to this sort of thing. In many ways, I feel it is tacky but there are other things to consider.
1)Most clergy don’t have it that well. In fact, many pastors wear multiple hats. At my third shift job I work with at least 3 full time pastors. One drives the church van, mows the grass, cleans the church, and preaches. They come out of their own pocket to pay the property taxes on their small churches.
2)Many individuals are quick to say that if an individual is called to the ministry, than they should not expect anything and while that is one of those beautiful things in theory that is simply not realistic. Why? Because church’s have bills. Duke Power does not accept payment in faith.
Part IV:
Additionally, pastors have bills. Many churches want their pastors to have graduate degrees in addition to being called. Graduate degrees cost money. Considering many divinity schools require students to earn the same amount of hours as law and med students, you’re talking a considerable investment of time. Also money.
Text book makers don’t give free textbooks to people who are called. While I was not called to the ministry, I did attend div school. Each semester, I spend about a grand in books. Each SEMESTER not year.
As we have separation of church and state, div schools are generally part of private universities. A Master of Divinity averages about 100 grand. The repayment on that is about 900 bucks a month if you have no undergrad debt and you don’t go for your Doctorate of Ministry or PhD in theology/religion/etc
Part V:
While the tuition at some schools is reasonable. For example, Princeton Theological Seminary is about 15K [http://www.ptsem.edu/finaid/] and that includes books and fees, that does not include total expenses. Howard is about 10K a year but that is tuition only [http://www.howard.edu/studentfinancialservices/pdf/1213/tuition_fee_brochure_ay1\
213.pdf]. Vanderbilt is 22K a year, and that is tuition only [“Vanderbilt Divinity School's tuition is currently $750 per credit hour ($2250 per 3 hour class) and will not go up through 2012. For the academic year the
tuition is $18,000-$22,500 depending how many courses the student takes.”]
Emory, is about 43K a year, and that is the total cost of attendance [http://www.candler.emory.edu/admissions/financial-aid/cost.cfm].
Divinity schools differ from seminaries in that it is not one specific religion, thus many students who went to div school have to do an additional year at a seminary in their faith. Example, Lutheran students then went to one of the Lutheran seminaries for a year. That costs money also because there are not that many of those as compared to divinity schools in the US.
Part VI:
Many of my classmates were still unemployed a year after graduating, thus some went to work on doctorate degrees. It is not easy to get into top PhD programs. Many of my classmates with 3.8 GPAs did not get into the top 3 programs they applied to.
While many churches did post openings, the salary would not even cover basic expenses much less the student loan repayment. Considering the number of hours pastors/clergy work [they go to the hospital and wait while people have surgery/procedures. They visit the sick and shutin. They go to funerals, conduct weddings. And even when they’re off the clock, they’re not because people take any moment that they see them as an opportunity to tell their problems. Their phone rings all hours of the night. So yeah, kicking in a fifty or a hundred or even two hundred for the pastor if you are moved to do so isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s not necessarily a good thing either. I’m just pointing out some things. We all know some people are simply crooks and not all in the pulpit were called to be there or deserve to be there.
Part VII:
Also, one has to consider the size of the congregation…if you have 2000 members and each person gives $35 that's your 70K right there.
Still, it'd look better if they offered to pay off a chunk of student loan for each birthday if he had some rather than just hand him 70K cash because you have to go bigger each year.